In this episode of Messy Social Work, Rich and Tim are joined by therapist and writer Jamie Crabb to explore his powerful article Care, and Being Seen in the Presence of the Enigmatic.

Jamie reflects on what care really asks of us when things don’t make sense—when distress can’t be easily named, understood, or fixed. Drawing on his own experience of the care system, his therapeutic work, and psychoanalytic ideas, we talk about what it means to be “seen” when what is being communicated is embodied, relational, and often uncomfortable.

The conversation moves through themes of care that falters, the temptation to explain or tidy away distress, and the quieter, harder work of staying present. We discuss how experiences that are not held can travel across time, how care messages land in the body, and why being seen is never neutral.

This is an episode about resisting quick interpretations, tolerating uncertainty, and thinking more honestly about care as something felt between people rather than delivered through technique. As ever, it’s messy, thoughtful, and rooted in real lives rather than neat answers.

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme

Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/

Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

Janet Kay is a prominent kinship carer, trustee for the charity Kinship, and OBE recipient who advocates for families in England raising relatives' children. Based in Sheffield, she has cared for her grandson since he was 18 months old, advocating for better financial and practical support, and overcoming the "dump and run" lack of resources for caregivers.

Key Aspects of Janet Kay's Work and Experience:

• Advocacy: She serves on the Independent Review of Children's Social Care's Experts by Experience Board and works to raise awareness of the 200,000+ children in kinship care.
• Background: Formerly a social worker and lecturer, she retired early to care for her grandson.
• Support & Recognition: She highlights the urgent need for legal, financial, and emotional support for kinship carers, who often face "invisible" challenges and limited resources.
• Campaigning: She works with the charity Kinship to support carers and helps set up local peer support groups in Sheffield.
• Honours: She was awarded an OBE in the New Year's Honours for her services to kinship care.

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme

Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/

Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

Professor Jonathan Scourfield is a leading UK academic in social work, currently based at Cardiff University. His work spans child welfare, social care inequalities, suicide and self‑harm research, and working with men across the life course

This one https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=6079816tests if participation quality (i.e., how well families said their voice was heard) was linked to outcomes and finds that yes it was, though not for all outcomes we measured.

This paper https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/s7f8g_v1 compares FGCs at three stages of the child welfare process and finds no differences among them, which is good news for promoting their use more broadly, not just for families with a child protection plan or in pre-proceedings. (the proviso being that not all outcomes improve after FGCs, but you wouldn’t really expect them to).

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme

Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/

Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

A few years ago, Rich carried out an assessment that concluded Juliette couldn’t safely care for her children. It was a difficult moment, shaped by years of substance misuse, trauma, and repeated involvement from services.

That assessment recommended residential rehabilitation.

Juliette went on to take that step.

In this conversation, Rich and Tim speak with Juliette about what was happening in her life at the time, why previous support hadn’t led to lasting change, and what was different about rehab. She shares openly about addiction, domestic abuse, and the reality of trying to rebuild a life.

Today, Juliette is clean, sober, and her children are back in her care.

This episode is about what can happen after the assessment — and what it really takes for change to occur.

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme

Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/

Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme

Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/

Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

Connect with Ethan here:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ethan-st-pierre-bb58403ab/

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme

Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/

Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

Connect with Ethan here:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ethan-st-pierre-bb58403ab/

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme

Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/

Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

In this conversation, Rich and Tim and Mark Hopfenbeck explore the concept of Open Dialogue, its origins, and its application in mental health and social work. They discuss the importance of community involvement, the need for continuity in care, and the training required to develop relational skills. Mark emphasizes the significance of peer support and the challenges faced in implementing Open Dialogue in various settings. The conversation also touches on the role of evidence in validating Open Dialogue practices and the future of this approach in mental health care.

Mark's presentation at the Thrive conference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EAegtEWsi4&t=2s

Professor Russell Razzaque on Radio 4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUVXKrFqaqE

takeaways

Open Dialogue originated from a need for better mental health support.
The approach emphasizes community involvement and transparency.
Continuity of care is crucial for building trust and relationships.
Training in relational skills is essential for effective practice.
Open Dialogue can be adapted to diverse cultural contexts.
Peer support plays a vital role in the Open Dialogue framework.
The approach encourages flexibility in meeting arrangements.
Evidence-based practice is important for validating Open Dialogue.
Radical transparency can improve client-professional relationships.
Open Dialogue reflects the values of excellent social work.


sound bites

"It's a very human way of being."
"We can do it better, and we can do it for less."
"We can show that everyone seems to be better."


Chapters

00:00 The Origins of Open Dialogue
04:21 The Evolution of Open Dialogue Practices
08:47 The Role of Community and Relationships
13:23 Open Dialogue in Diverse Settings
17:35 Comparing Traditional and Open Dialogue Approaches
26:23 Understanding Moral Injury in Healthcare Professionals
28:44 The Impact of Open Dialogue Training
30:25 Relational Skills in Social Work
32:49 The Essence of Open Dialogue
35:28 Navigating Difficult Decisions in Mental Health
39:41 Radical Transparency and Compassion in Care
41:38 The Need for Evidence in Compassionate Care
45:21 Global Perspectives on Open Dialogue

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme

Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/

Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/