In this episode of Messy Social Work, Rich and Tim are joined by therapist and writer Jamie Crabb to explore his powerful article Care, and Being Seen in the Presence of the Enigmatic.

Jamie reflects on what care really asks of us when things don’t make sense—when distress can’t be easily named, understood, or fixed. Drawing on his own experience of the care system, his therapeutic work, and psychoanalytic ideas, we talk about what it means to be “seen” when what is being communicated is embodied, relational, and often uncomfortable.

The conversation moves through themes of care that falters, the temptation to explain or tidy away distress, and the quieter, harder work of staying present. We discuss how experiences that are not held can travel across time, how care messages land in the body, and why being seen is never neutral.

This is an episode about resisting quick interpretations, tolerating uncertainty, and thinking more honestly about care as something felt between people rather than delivered through technique. As ever, it’s messy, thoughtful, and rooted in real lives rather than neat answers.

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme

Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/

Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

Janet Kay is a prominent kinship carer, trustee for the charity Kinship, and OBE recipient who advocates for families in England raising relatives' children. Based in Sheffield, she has cared for her grandson since he was 18 months old, advocating for better financial and practical support, and overcoming the "dump and run" lack of resources for caregivers.

Key Aspects of Janet Kay's Work and Experience:

• Advocacy: She serves on the Independent Review of Children's Social Care's Experts by Experience Board and works to raise awareness of the 200,000+ children in kinship care.
• Background: Formerly a social worker and lecturer, she retired early to care for her grandson.
• Support & Recognition: She highlights the urgent need for legal, financial, and emotional support for kinship carers, who often face "invisible" challenges and limited resources.
• Campaigning: She works with the charity Kinship to support carers and helps set up local peer support groups in Sheffield.
• Honours: She was awarded an OBE in the New Year's Honours for her services to kinship care.

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme

Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/

Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

Professor Jonathan Scourfield is a leading UK academic in social work, currently based at Cardiff University. His work spans child welfare, social care inequalities, suicide and self‑harm research, and working with men across the life course

This one https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=6079816tests if participation quality (i.e., how well families said their voice was heard) was linked to outcomes and finds that yes it was, though not for all outcomes we measured.

This paper https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/s7f8g_v1 compares FGCs at three stages of the child welfare process and finds no differences among them, which is good news for promoting their use more broadly, not just for families with a child protection plan or in pre-proceedings. (the proviso being that not all outcomes improve after FGCs, but you wouldn’t really expect them to).

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme

Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/

Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/