What do you do when Jesus changes the plan?

In this episode, Jamie and Raz talk about the moments in leadership and life where you stop and realize: “I didn’t see that coming.”

Throughout Scripture, people who walked with God were constantly surprised by where He led them. Abram didn’t see coming the call to leave home, the birth of Isaac at 100 years old, or the command to place the child of promise on Mount Moriah. Moses didn’t see coming a burning bush encounter with Yahweh. The disciples regularly failed to understand what Jesus was doing right in front of them.

And Paul didn’t see coming that the Holy Spirit would forbid him from going into Asia Minor. Instead, through a dream of a Macedonian man calling for help, Jesus redirected him into Macedonia — leading to ministry in Philippi, Thessalonica, Athens, and Corinth.

Jamie and Raz also share a recent story from Mariemont Church and the new Kingdom Lab summer internship.

As they planned a group project for the interns, they assumed the focus would be youth ministry, young adults, or assimilation. But during the interview process, they realized that three of the four interns shared a deep passion for serving individuals and families impacted by special needs.

It wasn’t on their radar at all.

But instead of forcing their original plan, they sensed Jesus inviting them into something unexpected: exploring what it would look like for Mariemont Church to become more Christlike and more welcoming to special needs individuals and their families.

In this episode, Jamie and Raz discuss:
• Why following Jesus often disrupts our plans
• The danger of closed-handed leadership
• How discernment sometimes looks like paying attention
• Why some of the best ministry moments are the ones you never planned
• What it means to live and lead open-handed with Jesus

The episode ends with a challenge for leaders:

Can you identify moments over the last six months where you found yourself saying, “I didn’t see that coming”?

Because throughout Scripture, people who truly followed Jesus were surprised by where He led them. Maybe part of following Jesus is staying open when He changes the plan?

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Resources & Contact Info

Email Raz & Jamie:
razwithhim@gmail.com

Their church: Mariemont Church (Cincinnati, OH)
https://www.mariemontchurch.org

Jamie’s website & writing:
https://www.jamiemoore.org

Jamie’s book, Friendship with God
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1736292609

In this episode, Raz and Jamie share the heart behind The Kingdom Lab — a 12-week summer internship designed to help young adults become deeply rooted in the Father’s love, formed by the voice and ways of Jesus, empowered by the Holy Spirit, and equipped to lead well in every area of life.

We talked about why this internship is so much more than leadership training or ministry experience. Our heart is to create an environment where young adults can truly learn to live with God — secure in their identity, growing in intimacy with Jesus, learning to hear and obey His voice, walking in the power of the Spirit, and developing the emotional and spiritual maturity needed for a lifetime of healthy Kingdom leadership.

The Kingdom Lab is built around four core values:

ROOTED — Grounded in the Father’s love and secure in identity.
FORMED — Shaped by the voice and ways of Jesus through intentional spiritual formation.
SENT — Empowered by the Spirit to bring the Kingdom wherever they go.
EQUIPPED — Developing real-world Kingdom leadership skills through hands-on experience in a healthy local church.

Interns will experience intentional discipleship, spiritual formation, mentoring from seasoned leaders, hands-on ministry experience, leadership development, and practical life skills that will serve them for years to come — whether in ministry, business, education, the arts, or everyday life with Jesus.

If you’re passionate about seeing the next generation become healthy, Spirit-filled Kingdom leaders, this conversation is for you.

Subscribe to the "With Him" Podcast email list

Get new episodes, bonus content, and more:
Subscribe to With Him Podcast

Explore past episodes and resources

With Him Podcast Archive

Resources & Contact Info

Email Raz & Jamie:
razwithhim@gmail.com

Their church: Mariemont Church (Cincinnati, OH)
Mariemont Church

Jamie’s website & writing:
Jamie Moore Website

Jamie’s book, Friendship with God
Friendship with God on Amazon

Raz and Jamie sat down for an honest conversation about the painful reality of unhealthy church leadership—and the deeper heart issues that often fuel it. We discussed how easy it can be for leaders to build identity around ministry success, control, growth, productivity, or the opinions of people, rather than resting securely in who they already are in Christ. When leaders are not rooted in Jesus, ministry can slowly shift from serving people to managing systems, protecting platforms, or chasing outcomes.

We also explored the Kingdom way of leadership that Jesus models: dying to self, abiding in Him, and leading from a place of surrender rather than striving. Healthy Kingdom leadership is not ultimately about building bigger organizations, but about loving and serving people well. Jesus consistently measured leadership differently than the world does—not by power, status, or numbers, but through humility, servanthood, faithfulness, and love. We talked about how true productivity flows from abiding in Christ and focusing on what He is focused on: people, presence, and obedience to the Father.

If you are a leader, serve in ministry, or have been hurt by unhealthy leadership dynamics, we hope this conversation encourages you to slow down, reconnect with Jesus, and rediscover the freedom of leading with Him instead of carrying the weight alone.

Subscribe to the "With Him" Podcast email list

Get new episodes, bonus content, and more:
Subscribe to With Him Podcast

Explore past episodes and resources

With Him Podcast Archive

Resources & Contact Info

Email Raz & Jamie:
razwithhim@gmail.com

Their church: Mariemont Church (Cincinnati, OH)
Mariemont Church

Jamie’s website & writing:
Jamie Moore Website

Jamie’s book, Friendship with God
Friendship with God on Amazon