An absolute privilege to be joined by Malcolm Greenhalgh, a former Primary school teacher who went on to lead one of England's largest independent inspection companies contracted to Ofsted and is now leading Incyte, a school improvement consultancy. Malcolm provided us with a helpful steer on what he was going to discuss and Ive copied it here.

Inclusive Flexibility

Like most I chat to about family and particularly about our children and grandchildren the chat always turns to the concerns we have about their future. And, in particular, how are they going to survive in such a dynamic world influenced by the impact of AI on the perception of truth, or how international criminal gangs are taking control over the lives of the average hard working person. The chats are always tinged with a significant sense of sadness as our society seems to be walking blindly into a state of chaos where there is great disregard for the laws created to ensure the world we live in is civilised and focussed on the well-being of all rather than well-being of some. There is also a sense of dismay when the chat turns to politics which also seems to focus on those that operate on personal gain rather than working together harmoniously for the well-being of all.

However, it is so easy to criticise but much harder to identify well thought out solutions to these mega issues.

Those of us in education may feel a great burden on our shoulders to provide our pupils with hope for a successful future in life that focuses on a positive contribution to society as a whole rather than a negative one. After all, isn’t this why we became involved in education in the first place?

To achieve this altruistic goal is a conundrum that educationalists around the world are faced with. Most fall into a trap of identifying solutions based on the same start point as we have always started from and then struggling to find the answers that will ensure our system of education is inclusive, equitable and fair, ensuring all pupils have the chance to achieve the goal of making a positive impact on society as a whole. The result is that we simply despair that we are not achieving what we set out to achieve.

In England, I always felt a sense of positivity during the 20th century and early part of the 21st century that we were moving in the right direction, we were making changes that did give all our pupils a fair chance of finding a life after school that they could use their skills, knowledge and understanding to make the positive contribution to society that we so want them to make enabling them to live a happy and fulfilled life. Yes, we did make mistakes when experimenting with new approaches to create an equitable system, but the direction towards the goal was always a positive one in the end.

However, the 100 years or so of progression came to an abrupt decline after the expert panel’s divisive conclusions in 2012 and the will of Gove to turn the education clock back to something more akin to Victorian education principles rather than those needed in a modern, fast moving world.

Although many countries around the world follow a similar process of schooling there are others that are taking decisions that will help to prepare the current population of pupils for the world they will meet when they leave full-time education.

What we need to consider in England is how we change our education system into one that has inclusivity and equity at its heart and meets the decisive individual needs of very different pupils.

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It is a privilege to have the chance to chat colleagues who have had impressive careers and are now making a difference through their support for others on their leadership journey. Today, we chatted to Glyn Potts, a former Headteacher who has been a guest while a headteacher on our weekly chat. He was joined by Neil Jurd, the former military senior officer and author of The Leadership Book and a previous guest. Neil has developed the Leader-Connect online platform, and both are now collaborating on a new leadership programme for school leadership teams.

The chat covers their work in developing the new leadership programme and why we all feel that many existing programmes do not prepare senior leaders well enough for the ‘white heat’ moments they encounter. Glyn and Neil explain how they have recently worked with the entire senior leadership team at Dallam School, using it as an example, and what they believe staff have gained from the short and intense development programme. Oh, by the way, their programme leads to a formal qualification from the Institute of Leadership.

Enjoy.

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This is a special edition of the Frank and Stan Chat SPOTLIGHT edition because we are joined by someone who we have both worked with. Joshua Mangas is a senior education and governance leader with over 15 years' experience across schools,

training providers, and public sector partnerships. He currently leads governance development and strategy for over 500 schools across Lancashire at Lancashire County Council, and serves as Chair of Governors at St Andrew's C of E Primary in Ramsbottom.

Before moving into governance, Joshua was Assistant Principal at Co-op Academy Walkden where he met Frank and Stan. Frank was the CEO of the trust that adopted the academy and Stan was one of its trustees.

While at the academy Josh doubled the national average in post-16 apprenticeship progression and was personally described as "exemplary" by Ofsted. He has won multiple national awards for careers education and has acted as a technical advisor to MPs, Ofsted, and the DfE on governance and transformation strategies.

He founded the Governance Assurance Framework because he saw the same pattern across hundreds of schools: governance was the only function in school improvement without a system.

During our chat Josh explains what the Governance Assurance Framework is and how it is organised into 47 governance elements across 11 governance functions and falls into three stages. It is free to all schools and not just to those in Lancashire.

You can find out more here

https://governanceassurance.co.uk

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It's quite rare for a guest to have to drop out of a planned visit to the Frank and Stan Chat but that happened recently so we used the World Wide Web to ask for volunteers. We’re pleased to report that a few people responded. We were then presented with a problem. How do you select which one? We decided to choose the first person who'd replied and that was Joe Pardoe.

Joe has a fascinating back story and a varied career in education. He explains all of this at the start of the chat. We were particularly interested in his experiences working at School 21. We explained how well we knew Liz Robinson, a colleague closely linked to School 21 and her work as co-founder of Big Education. Joe explained brilliantly was a fascinating time it was and how it continues to strongly influence his work.

The chat moves on to the regular slot of ‘what’s caught our eye/s this week?’

- Stan drew attention to the RISE advisers and the distances some have been expected to travel to support schools. He explains the fundamental weaknesses in this approach including its inefficiencies. He then wonders why existing school improvement services that exist locally have not been brought into the RISE programme?

- Joe, switches the issue of ‘what’s caught our eye’ to 'what hasn’t caught our eye? He wonders why the school admission notification date for the Primary phase appears to have got such little attention. He points out that for his family, it has been a hot topic on local Whatsapp groups with parents asking for advice and support and wondering what they will do if they don’t get their first choice?

- Frank then considers the appointment of Matthew Purves as the Ofsted Director charged with leading the development of the MAT/SAT inspection Framework. He explains why the appointment may rest heavy for those involved in the Caversham Primary School tragedy and questions why some fresh talent wasn’t sought for such a challenging role?

It’s a friendly, supportive, and we hope interesting chat. Joe was a great guest.

Enjoy

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Our guests this week are Alan Braven and Anthony Benedict. Anthony is CEO of Ambition Community Trust and Executive Head Teacher of Tameside Pupil Referral Service, with 27 years of experience in education.

Alan is a recently retired Executive Headteacher of Endeavour Federation, which provides specialist SEMH (Social, Emotional, and Mental Health) provision in Manchester. They are co-authors of the book 'Educating Everyone: An Introduction to Relational Inclusion in Schools'

This week's chat about education and leadership includes the following issues:

1. Should Martin's Law, when introduced in 2027, be a shared responsibility between the Headteacher/CEO and the Governing Body /Trust Board?

2. An FOI to the DfE reveals what they view a successful school to be. It's a disconcerting and deeply troubling picture.

3. The White Paper may be a signal of a step forward, but the Inclusion Hubs appear to be poorly thought through.

4. Can we have a commitment to inclusion when we still expect parents/carers to buy school uniform that is so expensive?

An engaging, lively and respectful chat between colleagues feeling comfortable with each other.

Enjoy.

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In May 2025, Frank met Ellen Mukwewa at a conference, and they followed this up with a virtual chat or two. During one the chats Ellen explained that she and her good friend Michelle Baker had created a new organisation bringing together those involved in the non-association independent school sector. As this was an issue the Frank and Stan Chat had not covered on a regular basis it seemed a good opportunity to set up a SPOTLIGHT edition to better understand the sector.

This SPOTLIGHT delves into a sector that is poorly understood by many but is a crucial element in supporting many children and young people with a diverse range of needs. What follows is a fascinating discussion.

Enjoy, and we hope learn more about their newly formed alliance, their upcoming conference and their ambition for the future.

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It is always a pleasure to have a previous guest return to our chat so that we can develop further some key points from the initial chat. Cathal Lynch joined us in March 2025 and received some of the highest viewing and listening figures in recent times. He's an engaging and deeply committed colleague who has focused on wellbeing in schools in recent years. The Wellbeing Quality Mark is well worth considering www.wbqm.co.uk

This chat considers the financial effectiveness of some high-profile trusts that have encountered financial challenges in recent weeks. Stan and Cathal let rip with Frank acting more like a BBC journalist. We should add that many trusts are well-led and financially secure, but there are still some lessons to learn from recent issues and problems. Frank closes the chat with reference to a recently published research paper into 'stuck' schools, a phrase he personally dislikes. TURNING AROUND ‘STUCK’ SCHOOLS IN ENGLAND: EFFECTIVE LEADERSHIP IN EXTREMELY CHALLENGING CIRCUMSTANCES by Bernadette Munoz and Melanie Ehren challenges the idea that support from afar is unlikely to be effective. A message perhaps for the RISE programme.

Enjoy.

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Rebecca Leek, poet, musician, former Headteacher of three schools, broadcaster and author of The School-Ready Governor returns to the chat. She was a guest in March 2025 and made a very favourable impression, bringing a wide range of insights on education and leadership. It's a timely chat with World Book Day on Thursday 5th March.

Rebecca explains how her life has changed in some respects since our last chat and how she is engaging in so many more things. These include;

- creating a podcast that focuses on poetry called 'The Ditty Bag' https://rebeccaleek.substack.com/podcast

- learning to play the accordian, and;

- performing it in a band. She continues to be involved in the Suffolk Primary Headteachers' Association.

This week's chat starts with Stan explaining why Martin's Law continues to be an issue, which he feels isn't getting sufficient attention. He draws on some interesting examples of how schools have tried to be innovative in addressing possible risks to pupil and staff safety. Rebecca makes clear that risk assessment and mitigation are proactive and positive measures.

Rebecca then considers the implications for SEND within the recent White Paper. She is concerned about the sense of universality that embraces the report and the difficulties in managing parent and carer expectations moving forward. We also discuss how effective a national training programme for SEND will be and the implication it conveys, that schools are not effective in managing the issues.

Frank completes the discussion by considering what he learned from 4 months of interim CEO work for a small trust in Greater Manchester.

An interesting and broad ranging discussion. Sorry, it went over the 35 minutes limit, but we felt it was worthwhile. We hope you agree.

The various links Rebecca referenced in the chat can be found below

www.rebeccaleek.com

Podcast: The Ditty Bag

Author: The School Ready Governor - Bloomsbury

Exec. Director: Suffolk Primary Headteachers' Association

Find Rebecca on X and Instagram

And a new project she is crowdfunding for: 'Elizabeth Fry Stops By'

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/p/elizabeth-fry-stops-by

Enjoy

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